Talk:Lucifer
In Shin Megami Tensei III I think the Old Man in the Wheelchair and the Young Boy are both supposed to be Louis Cyphre. As opposed to listing Lucifer as a supporting character in Nocturne, I think we should list Louis Cyphre instead. Sure, it's a pretty thinly veiled pseudonym, but it's less super spoilery. Additionally, I think he's really supposed to be Louis. If you look at Louis Cyphre's design, it looks like the middle stage between the little boy and the old man in a wheel chair. What do you guys think? SeventhEvening 07:08, 2 August 2008 (UTC) :Easy enough to change. Honestly, they never say what his name is, or who that mysterious woman in black is, so that would be on our conjecture. I just named them after what was available. Akkilmar 00:42, 3 August 2008 (UTC) ::I know. It's a bit of an assumption on our part, and it doesn't explain who the woman is, but I think it's pretty safe to assume. I'll work on that a bit later. SeventhEvening 00:59, 3 August 2008 (UTC) Split? You think we should split Lucifer and Helel? BLUER一番 14:44, 22 July 2009 (UTC) :Helel is just some bullshit title used by Persona3 to pad out it's resume. It should just be limited to the Persona3 section (seriously, take it out of the opening paragraph) ...Helel (persona) of course is a must if there are stats for him. But so is Lucifer (persona) Lucifer (devil) and Lucifer (character) :PS: ^About the above section, I wouldn't say that Lucifer's portrayal in Nocturne is the same as Luis Cypher or whatever. That is just Lucifer trying to be all David Bowie in SMT and other games. Luis Cypher is more like a guy on the street NPC than a character. I can't recall Luis Cypher ever being part of the plot.--Yksehtniycul 16:49, 22 July 2009 (UTC) ^err, actually Apparently he is not even called Helel in the original production... "Lucifer (ルシファー, Rushifaa), also known by his Hebrew name Helel (ルシフェル, Rushiferu)" At least the reading of the kana cited after "Helel" obviously looks like Lucifel, which is most likely based on the construction that non-fallen angle names end in "el". So in other words, probably Lucifel does belong on the same page as long as a decision is made to make separate pages for Dai Maoh Lucifer and Majin Lucifer.--Yksehtniycul 04:53, 25 July 2009 (UTC) Regarding the 'Gallery' section This can be applied to other articles besides this one, but in any case - is it truly necessary to have the same piece of art appear many times in the gallery, if they only were taken from different games? For example, the original concept art] for Lucifer's demon form appears alongside his SMTII sprite, the P3 version of the original art, and a screenshot of his status screen in Devil Survivor, while in my opinion, the original concept art would be enough. I don't know if this was already discussed before, so if it was, excuse me for this, but I thought I should ask. Moonside 04:25, June 3, 2010 (UTC) :I suppose we should remove them for being redundant. BLUER一番 04:59, June 3, 2010 (UTC) Well... This is unfortunate. Template cells with nothing entered into them no longer remain hidden and pressing the spacebar within the cells leaves a blank space but does not hide the cell's prescence at all. :/ Great Mara 12:14, October 20, 2010 (UTC) Put a Trivia or add in P3 FES Well, i was playing P3P the other day and, when i summoned Helel, the protagonist of Persona 3 shouted Lucifer instead of Helel i think someone should put that in a trivia or in the P3 FES section... i suppose it happens there too. : Actually only the male protagonist says Lucifer. The female protagonist correctly identifies Helel as Helel. Maybe it's because there's no sound file of him saying "Helel"? Luacas (talk) 11:09, July 24, 2012 (UTC) ::I think it's because the male voice clips are from base P3, where Helel was Lucifer, and unlike the "new" Personas in FES and P3P, they didn't feel they had to record a new line, as Helel is technically a returning persona from vanilla P3. If I recall correctly, in The Answer, Aigis does say Helel.--Otherarrow (talk) 16:09, July 24, 2012 (UTC) About Devil Survivor Did you know that one of the names Lucifer is known as is Luzbel? Persona 1 i added some informations from persona 1, i dont think its perfect yet maybe somebody could edit thisMasterOfTartarus (talk) 14:50, November 16, 2012 (UTC) CTRL + Q to Enable/Disable GoPhoto.it His most favourite speech Where does it come from? GalaxiaWild (talk) 17:23, December 10, 2012 (UTC) A Huge Hypocrite? Lucifer claims to want the best for humanity, but not only does he constantly manipulate and use the people he intends, but he'll outright do whatever he wishes to get his way because he believes his way is the one is right. Not only that, but despite having all this power, he constantly relies on needing to use humans to have his goals achieved. Which goes against his own philosophy of Chaos relying on your own power and not relying on others. So when you think about it, how is he any better then YHVH? 03:27, February 13, 2013 (UTC)AxelxGabriel : Lucifer values freedom and what the Chaos faction represents when it comes to freedom changes depending on the game. As a being of freedom he has the right to help just like he has the right to not help. Whether they choose to aid him or not depends on the individual.--JupiterKnight (talk) 03:42, February 13, 2013 (UTC) :It's worth noting that Lucifer and YHVH being huge hypocrites is kinda the point. Some games are better at showing this than others though.--Otherarrow (talk) 13:52, February 13, 2013 (UTC) Well let's be clear. What is the extent of the manipulation? Is it outright puppeteering, or is it simply maneuvering someone to the cause? I for one think people simply choose to aid him, for their own reasons. Lucifer simply inspires the act of walking down the path of Chaos. Maybe he knows what he has to do to stand a fighting chance against YHVH. Whatever it is, he's still way better than YHVH for his goals and that he values freedom, whereas YHVH is a dictator and a totalitarian with no good qualities. You decide who's better. GalaxiaWild (talk) 20:04, February 13, 2013 (UTC) :But even in the latest game Strange Journey, as Louisa, she says we as humans shouldn't follow "The Lord" blindly yet wouldn't following her/him? be the same? After all, even if the Chaos route were chosen, he praises you for what you have done in past games, yet in reality most of, humanity would easily be killed off in the new dog-eat-dog world created, essentially also only leaving the humans who "Deserve" to live through it all. Just like a Law World. : 04:41, February 15, 2013 (UTC)AxelxGabriel ::I think that is part of the point. While their methods are different, the result is more or less the same, and Lucifer and YHVH are massive hypocrites about it. Louis tends to get off a bit easier for not being as massive a prick as YHVH though.--Otherarrow (talk) 05:12, February 15, 2013 (UTC) ::You could make the argument then at least YHVH is honest. :: 05:47, February 15, 2013 (UTC) AxelxGabriel ::: No you can't. YHVH "loves" humanity but he treats humans like garbage and wants them to worship him 24/7, and those are the lucky ones that he doesn't have exterminated for not being worthy enough. If he really hates certain humans enough even if they are a very small minority he'll condemn all of humanity to be wiped out. Also, not all games have Chaos be dog eat dog.--JupiterKnight (talk) 06:41, February 15, 2013 (UTC) YHVH? Honest? Hell no! He, or at least his underlings, talk of bringing salvation to mankind, but in reality wants to, at best, enslave it or, at worst, destroy it. I doubt that Chaos is wholly the dog-eat-dog hellhole lots of us seem to have bought. All Lucifer cares is that YHVH, along with his oppressive laws, are gone, and the world would be freer for it. Lucifer at least cares about humanity, in some way at least, moreso than YHVH can ever pretend to care. Besides, it's not like going Neutral will do anything. Nothing will change. If YHVH is allowed to have his way, then he won't stop until he creates a world/universe where there humans can't be evil or go against his will because there is no free will, if Nocturne is anything to go by. So what would you prefer? Let YHVH have his way, help him, fight back and destroy his plans and fight for freedom, or hopelessly try to go back to normal hoping to stop all this while in the end only denying responsbility and reality? GalaxiaWild (talk) 10:12, February 15, 2013 (UTC) :Your Chaos bias is showing. Anyway, yeah, I am not sure if there is anything else to be said here. Lucifer is a hypocrite, but some people fell, well, at least he is better than the opposition. Others feel that he is being completely honest. It's really up to the player to decide. (Also, Neutral is usually about taking up responsibility and facing reality. Humans deal with humans. Arguably trying to go Chaos or Law and let the supernatural forces deal with it, and blaming them if something goes wrong, is denying responsibility more so than going Neutral. Then again, that is just me.)--Otherarrow (talk) 16:39, February 15, 2013 (UTC) I view them as philosophies really. One is terrible, one is cool or at least worth it, the other is a lie. And yeah, I'm partial to Chaos, but so what? Lots of you guys seem to be biased for Neutral, thinking it's the best, when the point of the game is to decide for yourself which path is the best, and why. Besides, I spent a lot of time thinking and just thought a Chaotic path was the best conclusion for me. Neutral allows you to deny responsibility by just sending things back to normal and changing nothing. Back on subject, I feel that Lucifer is honest. Even if he's not completely honest, he's honest enough, and way more honest than YHVH. GalaxiaWild (talk) 17:10, February 15, 2013 (UTC) :I am pretty sure the implication of the Neutral endings is that, with what they've learned and all, yes, the heroes will try to change things for the better. As I said, humans deal with humans. Assuming that they will just sit on their asses and do nothing because the demons are gone is insulting and wrong. The point of Neutral isn't returning things to the status quo, the point of Neutral is that humans have to learn to deal with their own problems and that choosing to side with the hypocritical Law and Chaos factions will only lead them to ruin. But, again, this is just my interpretation, and we are getting off topic.--Otherarrow (talk) 17:17, February 15, 2013 (UTC) Again, Neutral bias. GalaxiaWild (talk) 20:40, February 15, 2013 (UTC) The only thing I wanted to state in this topic is my opinion that Lucifer is a hypocrite in hisactions and his philosophy, making him not so different from YHVH. Am I correct in assuming that most of you agree? 22:23, February 15, 2013 (UTC) AxelxGabriel Wait, hasn't it been stated in an interview that YHVH wasn't originally evil, but just corrupted due to atrocities done in His name?-- 22:57, February 15, 2013 (UTC) It's been said YHVH was not originally evil, but a symptom of something wrong with the universe. But no one's saying anything about what that something is. It doesn't matter to me, not least since it's so vague. He's a dictator now, and that's all that matters to me. As for the main subject, I don't Lucifer is hypocritical, not completely. His intentions are pretty damn clear, he opposes YHVH and wants to free humanity from him, no bones about it and whatever it takes. For me, hey. Anything that makes a world of freedom. GalaxiaWild (talk) 23:31, February 15, 2013 (UTC) : I have to agree with GalaxiaWild on this. Even though I'd rather go Neutral than Chaos. Plus games have implied YHVH's always been like this since the creation of man. So really the whole something making him that way doesn't change anything. --JupiterKnight (talk) 23:36, February 15, 2013 (UTC) Hmmm, folks, can you don't delete the "Demon King" name in there? I KNOW ITS TYRANT, but demon king is cooler, don't you think? Why Help Humanity? This has bugged me for a while. Why does Lucifer want to help Humans or seem to be on Humanity's side? By his own philosophy, humans are, on average, much weaker then most demons under his control. So why would he care about a whole species of creatures that by hisown philosoph,y would be near the bottom, if not there? 20:35, July 30, 2013 (UTC) AxelxGabriel To answer that, you may as well ask why he even bothered to liberate humans from the tyranny and oppression of YHVH, or why he even opposes that tyranny in the first place. GalaxiaWild (talk) 20:40, July 30, 2013 (UTC) He's just a Tsundere that won't admit he care much for us~. Anyway, human, other than weak, have the greatest potential of all species. See how many humans started to be depicted as gods and, for example, you'll find that the Zoroastrian antigod, the Angriya Mainyu, is depicted as human in some legends. Still, Lucifer see us in a situation similar to his (god servant that cannot think with their head) and want to free us from his control, to make us think with our heads. --HakuNoKaemi (talk) 21:05, July 30, 2013 (UTC) Lucifer, a tsundere? I don't know why, but that's about the funniest thing I've heard on any talk page here. GalaxiaWild (talk) 21:29, July 30, 2013 (UTC) Was kidding about the Tsundere-thing ( *laughing* ), but he definitively like human in a strange manner --HakuNoKaemi (talk) 19:02, July 31, 2013 (UTC) Because humanity created Lucifer and God as a convenience for their own ideals. Lucifer represents humanity's infinite desires; the changes Lucifer goes through in each world is due specifically to the desires of the humans on that planet and the multiverse itself. Moreover, people really need to start paying attention and actually reading dialogue, I just found one quote in the wiki stupidly saying Lucifer told Lilith to spread knowledge in Mikado. Dead wrong. Humans in Mikado wanted change so Lilith came into being. This is outright stated if you talk to one of the NPCs in Mikado. Lilith and the Angels both informed the human who was curious enough to ask: "Why did you both come and then go?" Their answer? "It's what humanity wanted." The Truthful Knight (talk) 19:40, August 3, 2014 (UTC) Might I ask The Truthful Knight: if Lucifer represents humanity's infinite desires, surely YHWH and his angels represent something too, as long as they are opposing forces. That being the case, if that is the case, what would they represent? GalaxiaWild (talk) 23:02, August 3, 2014 (UTC) Strangely other games have pointed out that Lucifer has attempted to aid mankind despite the fact that their self destructive desires brought the demon invasion upon themselves, like in Majin Tensei. In Nocturne his goal was to end the battle between Law and Chaos while ending the universe in the True Demon Ending, where mankind no longer exists but Lucifer and the demons still do.--JupiterKnight (talk) 06:30, August 4, 2014 (UTC) So then what'd that mean for man? Would Lucifer create mankind all over again? GalaxiaWild (talk) 09:27, August 4, 2014 (UTC) It should be possible. Other demons like a quest in IV concerning the Mother Goddess Mami has her planning to make new humans, Mem Aleph is the mother of the soul in Strange Journey. But the way things looked they didn't seem to need to revive mankind to continue exist despite being mankind's desires and without their worship God would likewise be much weaker. The Goddess Mami in IV is mentioned in a Challenge Quest to be planning to make new humans, and Lucifer himself has made a human in a game.--JupiterKnight (talk) 10:04, August 4, 2014 (UTC) Who did he make? GalaxiaWild (talk) 11:20, August 4, 2014 (UTC) The Heroine of Majin Tensei.--JupiterKnight (talk) 11:50, August 4, 2014 (UTC) Interesting GalaxiaWild (talk) 12:31, August 4, 2014 (UTC) God in SMT represents Order, repression of desires, and stability but it's to a very authoritarian degree. The White - the ones who know how the multiverse really work because they represent humanity's true will - point out that despite being trapped by God's expectations, it only became this way because God was created as a convenience for humankind to escape their violent impulses. Jonathan, in the Neutral path, also says the weak humans created God out of fear because they needed something to believe in and thus God is a foundation for order. The true "evil" of the series is therefore humanity, not God or the Devil because both God and the Devil were created by humanity. The Truthful Knight (talk) 17:27, August 5, 2014 (UTC) : Humans alone are not just responsible for the state of the series. Strange Journey it is noted by the The Three Wise Men that civilizations of creatures other than humans once walked the earth, and had the same self-destructive nature. Three of the Archangels insane belief in God in SMTII created a Fake YHVH, and the curse of the Kunitsu, a curse humans know barely anything about and has to be explained to them by Okuninushi in King Abaddon, reveals that even if the Kunitsu demons who made the curse are dead, their anger and rage at the Amatsu and Hebraic Gods who persecuted them will never dissipate until they obtain revenge. The thoughts and beliefs of demons influence world just like humans, and creatures besides mankind exist. Not everything is influenced by human desires, and likewise the "true enemy" Lucifer speaks of in the series is never referred to as humanity. It always refers to some higher power. Now humans do have a very big influence in the series, but there are things out there not born from human desires, and that's not even getting into how demons can make humans, and human can give rise to demons.--JupiterKnight (talk) 12:53, August 19, 2014 (UTC) : Hebraic Gods? I thought that was just YHVH. GalaxiaWild (talk) 23:02, August 19, 2014 (UTC) :: It seems to be a thing where demons of another force/faction refer to YHVH and his Angels as "Gods". I believe Amaterasu or one of the Amatsu do it in Shin Megami Tensei II as well. It's not completely without reason, as YHVH does have demons of other religions serving him in games. A number of them appear as NPCs in Strange Journey with Yatagarasu as a boss after the alignment lock, or Thor in Shin Megami Tensei.--JupiterKnight (talk) 13:35, August 25, 2014 (UTC) :: Ah. Makes sense. Come to think of it, I imagine most of them feel threatened by his apparent power and the fact he turned most of the other gods into demons. But if YHVH is toppled, what happens to those gods/demons? GalaxiaWild (talk) 17:58, August 25, 2014 (UTC) Lucifer's second form in Shin Megami Tensei IV Does any full artwork of Lucifer's second form exist? We have full artwork of both forms of Merkabah, but we only seem to have full artwork of Lucifer's first form. GalaxiaWild (talk) 21:38, September 4, 2014 (UTC) Lawful route? There's actually lawful and chaotic routes in IV Final? I thought that that there were no lawful and chaotic routes in the game. That's what I heard about it anyway. I thought there were only shades of neutral endings this time around? Until now, it is confirmed that the game has two routes: Anarchy and Peace, with YHVH as the Final Boss in both. If the Law and Chaos endings were added to the game, then they seem to be "Bad Endings". Jonathan Summoner (talk) 14:42, February 18, 2016 (UTC) :You are exactly right. The Law and Chaos endings are apparently early bad ends that repeat (with some minor differences) the Law and Chaos endings of IV.--Otherarrow (talk) 18:36, February 18, 2016 (UTC) Nocturne Diarahan I noticed that Lucifer's entry for Nocturne was modified and that Diarahan is one of his skills now. However, when I faced him on the True Demon path he never used it once. Was I just really lucky or does he only have it in the Nocturne Maniax Chronicle edition (I only played the localized 'Nocturne Maniax' version that has Dante)? DokutaFutomimi (talk) 23:49, October 20, 2018 (UTC) :Watching 4 different LPs today and I've only seen Diarama. If it is somehow from Chronicle, then a new template needs to be made. The original is for Nocturne. Great Mara (talk) 02:51, October 22, 2018 (UTC) :After looking up some Japanese sites, I found the answer. There's no Diarahan at all in the Maniax version, only Diarama. Lucifer does have Diarahan in the Chronicle version, but only if you're playing in Hard Mode. He's scripted to use Diarahan the first time you deal over 40k damage to him. Also, Root of Evil was also buffed in Hard Mode: it now has 100% chance of Dekaja. G.A.S.A (talk) 19:25, October 23, 2018 (UTC)